Relevant excerpts, questioning of Secretary of State Colin Powell, Senate Appropriations Committee Hearing, April 29, 2002

Relevant excerpts, questioning of Secretary of State Colin Powell, Senate Appropriations Committee Hearing, April 29, 2002
PANEL TWO OF A HEARING OF THE SENATE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE
CHAIRED BY: SENATOR ROBERT BYRD (D-WV) PANEL TWO
WITNESS: SECRETARY OF STATE COLIN POWELL

POWELL: In addition, as part of our request for supplemental funding in 2002, we have asked for legislative authority in two areas: First, authority that will facilitate the provision of cooperative threat reduction and Title V Freedom Support Act assistance. This assistance has been critically important in the dismantlement and non- proliferation of weapons-of-mass-destruction materiel and expertise in the new independent states.

Secondly, we are requesting expanded authority to allow support for Colombia's unified campaign against drugs, terrorism and other threats to its national security. These expanded authorities will allow Colombians to use equipment for counterterrorism operations that was previously provided through counterdrug funding.

In sum, Mr. Chairman, these supplemental dollars for foreign operations in '02 will be directed primarily at draining the swamp in which terrorists thrive and in ensuring the long-term success of Operation Enduring Freedom, as well as enhancing homeland security.

SEN. LEAHY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Secretary, just to follow up a little bit on what we were saying early on -- and you had mentioned, when we were talking about the African Growth & Opportunities Act, the standards that are set there. They have to show progress toward political pluralism, good governance, human rights, (and?) things we all agree on. And then you said, "Of course, that should be the hallmark anyway."

But is that the hallmark? I mean, in the supplemental request, I find that I don't see that, (and?) the aid might go to several countries. The administration is talking to the Defense Appropriations Subcommittee looking for ways to get rid of a number of the standards we now have, whether it's in Indonesia, Colombia, elsewhere.

And are we going to have one standard if we have something like growth in Africa or building up some of these countries that have been admittedly ignored by administrations of both parties for years, but a different standard if we feel that somehow it's connected to the war against terrorism?

SEC. POWELL: I think each country has to be measured against the state of its political and economic development. In the case of Indonesia, it's a nation that I think is moving in the right direction. It's been through some difficult times.

And I think this is a time for us to begin supporting their military again and make sure that that military is exposed to U.S. values, western values, that we have an opportunity to work with them, to train with them, to invest in them, to make them a positive force within that country, without overlooking some of the problems that might have existed in the past, and also pressing the Indonesian government to take action against past human rights abuses.

So as we work with the country and foster its political development, we should be prepared to invest in those institutions that may not have met the standard that we're anxious for them to meet fully, but are moving in the right direction and have that as their goal.

SEN. LEAHY: Well, I worry about that. When you mentioned Indonesia, I think about what happened in East Timor. I know that some of the army officers most involved with the atrocities there never really faced any consequence for their actions. And we had been helping with the training of some of the military who were involved in those atrocities.

So at what point do we say we are going to apply the standards we apply to other aid recipients?

SEC. POWELL: We have to make it -- it's a judgment call. Many of the officers that we did train did not participate in atrocities. And we have had some success, I think, in counseling Indonesia as to how they might deal with other problems they have in Aceh and other places, so that you don't have a repetition of what happened in East Timor.

With respect to Colombia, as you've heard me testify previously, Senator Leahy, the State Department is not seeking to get around any of the human rights requirements of the law, and we'll continue to apply the law as it was intended to be applied with respect to the use of our equipment and funding.

SEN. LEAHY: Please make sure that everybody in the administration hears that. I mean, we're -- I am not unsympathetic to the things we want to do in Colombia. I have a lot of admiration for President Pastrana and the efforts he made. He is leaving. I don't know if his successor will be in a similar way.

I think, with the billions we spend on the so-called war against drugs in now two administrations, I'm not sure whether we've really accomplished a lot. I wish we did as much -- and this is not in your portfolio -- I wish we did as much here in the United States to stop the demand for those drugs, because obviously we could put a bubble -- if we put a bubble over Colombia and we still have $100 billion or more demand for drugs in this, the wealthiest nation on earth, it's going to come from somewhere else. And so we've got to approach it from that part, too.

The activities of the FARC are reprehensible. The activities of some of the paramilitaries are also reprehensible. But I would urge the -- that it would be helpful if everybody in the administration got on the same program. And I'm perfectly willing to sit down and help in that. But I want a consistent voice. You have been consistent, but I want a consistent voice from those who come up here looking for appropriations.

SEN. GREGG: There has been a House committee report which cited that there was a relationship between al Qaeda, the Colombian drug cartels and the IRA. Are you familiar with any -- with any relationship that exists between those three terrorist organizations and criminal organizations, which are either on an intelligence basis, an economic basis, or a personnel basis?

SEC. POWELL: I'm familiar with the connection that we have all read about between some individuals from the IRA who were in Colombia working with organizations in Colombia. The al Qaeda connection I've only recently become aware of but I don't have up-to-date intelligence information on the -- of the strength or -- or of the intelligence and the reality of that three-way connection.

SEN. GREGG: Is it reasonable to assume that there's cross- fertilization between groups like that?

SEC. POWELL: I think it's reasonable to assume that, but assumption is not necessarily fact. But I think we have seen in the last year that there are -- there's a lot -- a lot of fertilization taking place between different terrorist organizations, and with each passing day, you can begin to see different connections emerge that have to be pursued.

SEN. GREGG: I notice you've had very strong success in getting specific nations and a lot of nations to participate in our war on terrorism. But it seems that there's been less success at what I would call international organizations, especially ones that are affiliated with the United Nations. I'm wondering if you could give us your thoughts as to why that's the case?

SEN. REED: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Secretary. Las week at the Foreign Operations Subcommittee hearing we had a chance to talk about Colombia, and let me follow up with two comments and your reaction. First, I note that in the supplemental you are requesting permission to move from the very restricted counternarcotics operations to a more general one, in the words of the submission, "To support a unified campaign against narcotics traffic and terrorist activities and other threats to its national security." It strikes me from having been down there on two occasions, going out to Tres Esquinas to -- that the operational restrictions on our equipment and our personnel are quite severe, and that suddenly moving from a very restrictive mission which essentially requires everyone who uses those helicopters to be vetted, operational control to only be in the hands of people, the senior leaders who have been vetted, to a more generalized situation that is going to be virtually -- what's going to be very difficult to continue those types of controls, those types of vetting, the human rights. Does it make more sense to send up explicit changes to the rules that you might see as being consistent with this new generalized mission, rather than simply saying, as you are, We are going to abide by all the rules -- when in fact I think in practice it might be virtually impossible to do so?

SEC. POWELL: I don't know that it's impossible. If it turns out to be impossible, then clearly we should come back to the Congress and get clarification of Congress's intent and see what rules are appropriate. But in the particular request before you, we just needed to remove that barrier that keeps us from doing the kinds of things that are now necessary to be done in order to prevent President Pastrana and the next Colombian president to take on the threat of both counternarcotics traffickers as well as terrorists. And the line that currently exists does not allow them to do that in an efficient way. And it has really blended over. And once he ended the safe areas for the FARC and the ELN it became clear that it was necessary for us to get this kind of relief in order to deal with the comprehensive threat. I am more persuaded of that now than I was even when we submitted it, when I see the kinds of activities that the FARC are engaging in. They threaten the Colombian democracy -- assassination of officials, going after mayors, kidnapping, hijackings. All of these things have to be dealt with, and we have to have the flexibility in order to give the Colombian government the flexibility it needs to go after this kind of threat.

SEN. REED: Well, I -- again, I think it might be useful at this juncture to try to explicitly and consciously think through what changes might be required to have an operation that can be successful and also maintain fidelity to the human rights constraints that are in place.

SEC. POWELL: Yes. And, as you know, we did say we would maintain the fidelity to the various amendments that bound this money and these investments. But I would be more than happy to pursue this with you, Senator Reed.

SEN. REED: One other related point, Mr. Secretary. And that is regardless of what we do, this effort must be significantly that of the government and the people of Colombia. And it appears that their investment in their own military forces, in their operations against the various guerrilla bands in the country, has not been adequate for the task.

And until we can not just work with them but encourage them to mobilize their own military force effectively, they have a huge country and a rather small army relative to that country. Their air force operations have not been as aggressive as some of their army operations. Until we do that, whatever aid we give them will not be decisive.

SEC. POWELL: We discussed this last week also, Senator. And you can be sure that when the new president comes in later this summer, this is an area we'll be pursuing with him. They have to make more of an investment of their own national treasure and national budget in this effort.

SEN. DEWINE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Secretary, for the great job that you are doing for our country. We are deeply in your debt for doing that.

Let me ask you a question. There is a report in this morning's paper about the plans to resume the drug interdiction flights in regard to Peru and Colombia. The report in the paper indicated that there would be a State Department employee who would be aboard each flight, but that the final decision about whether there actually be a shoot-down would be by the host country's military. I wonder if you could tell us anything about that and tell us maybe a little bit about what the thought process has been as the administration has looked at this very difficult question.

SEC. POWELL: Well, as you know, Senator, as a result of the tragic accident last year, we stopped our flights and took a very detailed look and examination of all the processes, procedures and policies that were being followed. And we now have finished that review and are prepared to move forward.

Ultimately, though, the decision to employ lethal force against an airplane that might be trafficking in drugs has to be that of the nation and not something that would be ordered by the United States. They have to have national sovereignty over their own armed forces conducting such operations. And that has always been the premise upon which these flights have been flown.

So we will help them. We will help identify, help make sure that we know what's being gone after. But the actual use of the lethal force and the decision to use that lethal force is a sovereign decision for the nation concerned.

SEN. DEWINE: The report indicated that the State Department would be doing this, as opposed to another department.

SEC. POWELL: Yeah, I would prefer to provide the --

SEN. DEWINE: You want to hold off on that?

SEC. POWELL: -- details of it privately and for the record.

SEN. DEWINE: I would appreciate that. Let me just comment, if I could. I congratulate you on being so forthright about your request for expanded authority in regard to Colombia. And I think it's important that the administration continue to make the point that what is at stake here is not just the fact that drugs come from Colombia and that we consume an awful lot of drugs. That is very, very, very important, but that's just part of the story.

This is an ally of the United States. This is a friend of the United States. This is an old democracy in this hemisphere. And it is in our national interest for this government to survive. And I think you have been very articulate in that regard, and your comments today are very appreciated. And I just would encourage you to continue to do that.

SEN. BYRD: Thank you, Senator Kohl. Mr. Secretary, you've been detained far beyond your expectations or ours, to begin with, and we thank you.

Let me ask you about three questions which should respond -- should require short answers. I understand that the administration does not intend to use U.S. troops or U.S. civilian contractors in a combat role in Colombia. Is that correct?

SEC. POWELL: Yes, sir.

SEN. BYRD: Would you have any problem if we included language in the supplemental that prohibits U.S. troops or U.S. civilian contractors from being involved in a combat role in Colombia?

SEC. POWELL: None that I could see, but I would like to get an administration position for you.

SEN. BYRD: The government of Colombia will change hands this summer. We don't know who the next president will be. Why should we broaden our policy and increase our aid to Colombia when we don't know with whom we will be dealing a few months down the road?

SEC. POWELL: That was a question we dealt with when we considered whether we should go for the authority. The judgment we made was the situation was so critical that we should ask for the authority now, recognizing that it would be authority that was going to be used, for the most part, by the next government.

But if we didn't ask for it now, the next government would come in and we would still be looking for the legislative vehicle to hook it to. So we thought even though it would apply to our few remaining months of the Pastrana administration, looking at who the candidates were and who's liable to come in, it seemed to us to be the wise course of action to ask for the relief now.