Transcript: Questioning of Gen. Peter Pace, commander-in-chief, U.S. Southern Command, by Senate Armed Services Committee, March 27, 2001

Transcript: Questioning of Gen. Peter Pace, commander-in-chief, U.S. Southern Command, by Senate Armed Services Committee, March 27, 2001

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SEN. WARNER: We hold our second series of hearings to receive testimony on the status and requirements of our regional commands. We do that, this committee, each year. It provides us for a basis of fact upon which we then can proceed to have our long and lengthy series of hearings on the authorization bill....

SEN. CARL LEVIN (D-MI):

At the outset, let me thank you, General Pace, for your assistance and your counsel and your hospitality as three colleagues of this -- of myself and the chairman and this committee and I went to Colombia not too many weeks ago. Senators Reed/eid, Bill Nelson and Ben Nelson and I made that visit. It was a very important one for us and your participation contributed a great deal to that importance.

This morning's hearing takes place as the administration continues to conduct a review of existing policies towards China, including potential arms sales to Taiwan, and existing policies as well which are being reviewed towards North Korea, Colombia, the Andes and number of other hot spots in the world.

In recent weeks, President Bush has expressed support for Plan Colombia and for the peace process, but declined to have the United States represented at the peace negotiation table. In recent weeks, President Bush has expressed skepticism about the course of negotiations with North Korea, thereby weakening the position of the South Korean president in his negotiations with North Korea....
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SEN. LEVIN: General Pace, one of the conclusions that Senators Reed and Ben Nelson and Bill Nelson and I reached following our visit to Colombia was that -- and here I'm quoting -- "the continued strengthening, modernization and professionalization of the Colombian military is the best hope for weakening the narcotraffickers' stranglehold on Colombian society, advancing the rule of law to protect the rights of all Colombians, and ending the massive violations of human rights in Colombia."

Would you agree with that?

GEN. PACE: Sir, I agree with that 100 percent.

SEN. LEVIN: Could you tell us, General, about your views as to how serious you believe the Colombian army leadership is to end the cooperation between the Colombian army units in the field and the paramilitaries?

GEN. PACE: Senator, thank you. I am convinced that the senior leadership is dedicated to do that. I have been to Colombia seven times, sir. Each -- on each trip, I have had the privilege of meeting with, on various occasions, President Pastrana; on almost every occasion, Minister of Defense Ramirez; and on every occasion, General Tapias, who is the chairman, and the service chiefs of their army, navy, and air force. We have had discussions. We have visited field units. We have talked both about human rights violations and about collusion with the paramilitary.

The army of Colombia initially attacked the problem that they had with human rights. They have embedded in their training program human rights training. And as an example of the success they have had there, two years ago, about 60 percent of the accusations of human rights abuse inside Colombia were against the Colombian military. This past year just under 2 percent of all accusations of human rights abuse was against the Colombian military. And the Colombian military's standing within the public has raised from number 10 in public opinion polls to number one. So the Colombian military has in fact taken on the human rights responsibilities that they have with vigor.

They have now turned that same focus on to collusion with the paramilitary, and the leadership --

SEN. LEVIN: To attempt to end it?

GEN. PACE: Correct, sir. The leadership understands that has been going on. They understand that it is unacceptable. They have undertaken to train their units in that regard, and in fact they will specifically say, and have to me, that they view the paramilitaries and, in their words, the illegal self-defense forces, because "paramilitary," to them, gives it a little bit too much credibility -- the illegal self-defense forces as the long-term largest threat to the survival of their democracy.

SEN. LEVIN: Thank you.

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SEN. DAYTON: Thank you very much.

And, General Pace, you mentioned Colombia. And we have had a couple of briefings on that, including a meeting with the Defense minister of Colombia. And some of the comments that he used struck a note in my memory bank. He referred to the light at the end of the tunnel in the situation there. Your testimony, sir, refers to the increased paramilitary activity, kidnappings, and the like, which seems, given our involvement in what some might view as the domestic affairs of that country, would be almost a natural follow to what we're doing.

I guess I would appreciate -- and I understand that these policies are made by civilian authorities, but from a military standpoint, how do you view realistically the situation there?

And as a second -- a corollary to that, I appreciate that in your prepared remarks you refer to the -- this illicit drug industry as a growing threat to the United States homeland, which corroborates my own view that one of the, if not the greatest threat to our national security is this flow of illicit drugs into this country and the devastating effect it's having on our cities, our youth, and the like.

What, if any, from a military standpoint, could we do to increase the interdiction of these narcotics coming into this country to make the transport of them something that would be seen as so life- threatening that it would have a greater deterrent on those who are trafficking, it seems, often without impunity?

GEN. PACE: Senator, thank you very much. I'll try to give you the Reader's Digest version of the answer to that, to both those very important questions.

With regard to the situation, sir, President Pastrana's Plan Colombia, which we are supporting through the bipartisan support of our Congress, 10 very distinct parts of that, one of which is a military piece, the other nine are such things as revamping judiciary, improving the schools, improving the health, building roads, alternative crop development, and all the kinds of things that will actually be the make-or-break part of the plan and whether or not it is successful in the future, but to get there, the military and police part of providing secure environment, inside of which the other nine parts can take part (sic), is very important.

And today, the combined capabilities of the Colombian military and Colombian police is not sufficient to provide security for the entire country. They can, in fact, do set-piece battles and win; they can go to a particular part of their country, take control of it and sustain that control, but they are not large enough to be able to provide security for the entire country. As a result of that, the military support that we are providing, in the form of assisting them to train their counternarcotics brigade and assisting them, through our State Department, to obtain helicopters and to marry up the helicopters with the counternarcotics brigade is, in fact, helping them very much.

The plan by the president, President Pastrana, to increase the size of his military by 10,000 a year each year for the next several years, will in fact go a long way to allowing him to have the size force and the professional-size force to be able to provide the security he needs.

So, from my perspective, the plan as laid out, if aggressively pursued, can in fact get to the goal for which it is intended, sir.

To your second question, sir, as far as threat to the homeland, sir, I consider drugs to be a weapon of mass destruction, and it is a threat to our homeland. If I had one dollar to spend, I would spend on demand reduction. The second place I would spend money is in the source zone, where we are helping right now. And the third place I would spend money would be in the transit zone. And the reason I put it in that priority is that is where I believe our efforts will provide the most success in the long term. It is very difficult, once it is produced and it begins its transit to the United States through the Eastern Pacific, up through Central America, through the Caribbean, up through the islands, very, very difficult to chase those arrows once they've left the bow, to try to catch them in flight or determine where they're going to land.

SEN. DAYTON: Thank you.

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SEN. EDWARD M. KENNEDY (D-MA): Thank you. And thank you, Senator Landrieu.

General Page (sic), the U.S. ambassador to Colombia, Ann Patterson (sp), has indicated that spray planes in Colombia were shot at 122 times last year and American civilians are involved in flying those planes. And her assessment is that Americans are at risk in Colombia and that we'll have Americans shot down. What is your view about the risks that Americans have in Colombia? And is it inevitable that Americans will be shot down?

GEN. PACE: Senator, thank you. The -- as you know, the civilians, American civilians who are flying those aircraft are hired by our State Department to fly those airplanes. They are U.S. contractors who are flying the airplanes. They have, in fact, had at least 128 hits in the last year on the small airplanes that they fly. Clearly, if they continue to fly into the more difficult areas to get to -- where they've been spraying so far is in flat areas. As they get into the more mountainous terrain where the folks on the ground can shoot at it not only straight up but from the sides, the environment in which they fly becomes more and more dangerous. It would not surprise me that over time that one of those aircraft will be shot down.

SEN. KENNEDY: Well, if that happens, what are the procedure(s) for search and rescue operations? I mean, who is responsible for the Americans' safety?

GEN. PACE: Sir, those aircraft are flying in support of and as part of the Colombian National Police effort. The Colombian National Police have the search and rescue responsibilities. The helicopters that they use currently are manned both by Colombian pilots and by a U.S. civilian contract pilot.

SEN. KENNEDY: So our military would not be involved in any of the search and rescues?

GEN. PACE: That is correct, sir.

SEN. KENNEDY: The American civilians involved in flying the spray planes, are they armed?

GEN. PACE: I don't know, sir. I can find out.

SEN. KENNEDY: On the issue of collusion between the Colombian armed forces and the paramilitary, it's widely recognized that collusion between the two groups exists at the grassroots level, notwithstanding the efforts at the higher levels to address the problem.

And the State Department Human Rights Report states that in 2000, members of the security forces collaborated with the paramilitary groups that committed abuses, in some cases allowing such groups to pass through roadblocks, sharing information or providing them with supplies and ammunition.

What's the highest-ranking U.S. military personnel who has conveyed concerns about the link to the Colombian government?

GEN. PACE: Sir, the highest-ranking U.S. military officer who has conveyed that concern is me, sir.

SEN. KENNEDY: And could you -- I know you made a brief reference earlier to Senator Levin. Could you describe -- I know you've been there seven times, and appreciate your earlier responses. Could you give us some idea about what the response was and what your own reaction is to it?

GEN. PACE: Sir, thank you. Sir, the response from President Pastrana, who broached the subject with me, Minister Ramirez, General Tapias, and all of his service commanders who briefed me on it first, have all been -- great concern. They recognize that they do have at the lower levels, and have had, collusion with the -- what we call the paramilitaries. They are determined to stamp out that collusion.

As one indicator, I've been invited next week, by General Tapias, to go to sit down and debrief his senior staff, his service chiefs and their senior staffs, on my testimony in front of these committees so that they can better understand what issues are of importance to the United States Congress. Obviously, two of the issues I will talk to them about and debrief them on are human rights and collusion. So they are very dedicated, sir, from the president on down, to stamping this out, just as in the past they focused on human rights violations and their record has improved dramatically.

SEN. KENNEDY: Well, on the human rights -- well, let me ask you this before I come to the human rights. Have the American military personnel on the ground in Colombia seen evidence of this collusion?

GEN. PACE: No, sir. We operate solely inside the training bases. We do not go out on operations, sir.

SEN. KENNEDY: On the --

SEN. WARNER: Senator Kennedy, could I interrupt just a minute?

SEN. KENNEDY: Sure.

SEN. WARNER: I have to absent myself to go up and introduce the new nominee for the general counsel of the Department of State, a former deputy secretary of Defense. So I'll be back in just a few minutes.

If you, Senator Sessions, would take the chair.

SEN. KENNEDY: On just the -- on the issues of human rights, I've appreciated the percentages in the population. As one who was around during the time of the pacification in Vietnam, I remember we used to have a checklist, too, you know, a hamlet was pacified if they had a well -- they had 10 different things that they -- if they had a well, they had a school, they had employment, they had housing, they had the other, it was pacified. And so it took us a long time to realize that we ought to look at what's happening in the inflation of rice that's coming into that hamlet, in terms of understanding what was really happening in that area, region. We became much more sophisticated in terms of the evaluation.

And I'm sure you'll want to do that as well. When we're talking about the human rights, I'm sure you want to know what the kinds of charges that were made, what level of human rights charges were made, and what's being dropped or what hasn't been dropped on this, be gone from the percentages which you mentioned. And I'd like to know, you know, about who's doing the polls. I know the rest of us, we've all been through polls.

I'm sure you've got your own intelligence people that are looking at it. So -- and I'm sure you're appropriately skeptical, as you would be in trying to make any judgment on any policy-sort of question.

The time -- my time is up. If I could -- if you have any reaction to that. But then, if I could, Mr. Chairman, ask if SOUTHCOM is preparing a report on the -- Colombia's paramilitary groups and their links with drug traffickers. I don't know whether the -- I'd like SOUTHCOM to see if they could do one for the committee, if that's possible. I --

GEN. PACE: Sir, we --

SEN. KENNEDY: I suppose that request for the committee ought to come through the chair, but I'll ask that and I'll talk to the chair and the ranking member.

GEN. PACE: Sir, we can do that. And my human rights information, sir, came from Ambassador Patterson (sp) and her country team, sir. I am parroting information I received in-country from the U.S. embassy.

SEN. KENNEDY: Okay. Well, I'd just say that in your own evaluation to know what those types of charges, what the allegations are and how they're being dismissed --

GEN. PACE: Yes, sir.

SEN. KENNEDY: -- what officers -- if they are officers or noncommissioned people, and to give a complete picture, I think, is going to be called for as well. But I thank you very much for your testimony.

GEN. PACE: Yes, sir.

SEN. KENNEDY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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SEN. SESSIONS: General Pace, have you had prior experience with the drug effort, prior to this assignment?

GEN. PACE: Sir, in a minimal way, in my previous assignment as the commander of U.S. Marine Corps forces in the Atlantic, we had some detachments that deployed to Peru to assist in some riverine training there, and some that deployed to Colombia to assist with riverine training, and we also had some detachments that deployed to the southern border of the United States to assist law enforcement agencies there in detecting and monitoring traffic coming across the border. But that is the extent of my involvement.

SEN. SESSIONS: As a federal prosecutor, beginning in 1975 on the Gulf Coast, dealing oftentimes with smuggling cases from Colombia where it was the main source country for cocaine and remains so, I've seen and wrestled with that. I've seen a lot of plans that are going to fix the problem; we're going to -- through interdiction we're going to stop it or we're going to do it through focusing on the source countries.

You correctly stated in your priority that demand reduction is number one. Demand reduction is a combination, in my view, of law enforcement and education and drug treatment and drug testing and things of that nature that do work in the United States. But I will just tell you, and I think I've expressed this to you before, we're not going to solve our drug problem by spraying the coca plant in Colombia.

In one of our meetings in the drug caucus recently I asked the DEA director what his budget was. It was $1.3 billion -- the same amount of money we're spending on Colombia, Plan Colombia. And I don't -- trust me, we'll get a lot more anti-drug benefit from doubling DEA than we will for this Plan Colombia.

Now, I supported Plan Colombia, and expressed real concern about our full understanding of what it's about, so I would like to ask you again, in your -- from what you understand, the policy of the United States with regard to Colombia and Plan Colombia, how much of that is -- discuss with me what our goals are. How much of it is focused on drugs and how much of it is focused on helping Colombia reestablish its nation, a democratic society throughout its nation?

GEN. PACE: Sir, the $1.3 billion that was allocated in the supplemental from our government last year, I had the responsibility to oversee about 250 million of that. Of that 250 million, about 110 (million) to 120 million is going to improving the capabilities of the three forward-operating locations in Ecuador, in El Salvador, and then Aruba/Curacao, so our airframes can fly -- so that they can do the detection and monitoring mission.

The next large chunk of money is about $55 million that has gone into the support for the Colombian military to assist them in improving their intelligence capability. The next levels down then go to the amount of money we're spending to train up the 3,000-man brigade to assist them with some of the logistics in their maintenance, to assist in building the helicopter pads for the three groups of helicopters that are being bought by our State Department and sent down there. So from the U.S. military standpoint, sir, the vast majority of the money is going into cement and into intelligence.

SEN. SESSIONS: Well, I guess -- I'm just concerned, and I'll just restate my concern with this whole matter. Colombia is the oldest democracy in this hemisphere, I believe, except the United States. It has 38 million people; they've been allies and friends of ours, they are a significant trading partner of the United States, and their nation is in jeopardy.

Some of their best people are fleeing the country, are they not?

GEN. PACE: Yes, sir.

SEN. SESSIONS: They have real emigration because of the terrorism and the attacks and the Marxist guerrillas taking over substantial portions of their country. And we suggest the only way we can help them is to help them fight drugs. And I think we need to be much more realistic about that. And it will be a tragedy if we stand here and allow them to fall or be undermined or have their economy destroyed as a result of this guerrilla effort.

GEN. PACE: Sir, I agree with you that this is a fight for democracy in Colombia, to support that democracy. It is not an expectation of being able to wipe out coca. If you did wipe out every coca plant in the world, some other drug would be fed to the demand side. And I stand by and agree with you that the demand reduction is the most important.

I've done a disservice to the State Department because I cannot speak to their numbers, but I do know that inside their $1 billion- plus of the $1.3 billion, that there are alternative crop developments and support for the other nine parts of Plan Colombia other than military that are the key to success. But I agree with you, sir, this is supporting our friends and neighbors, supporting a fellow democracy while we also assist ourselves.

SEN. SESSIONS: Well, we have a huge demilitarized zone for the FARC that allows them to operate without any attack or under complete protection. And now, I believe yesterday, the United States ambassador to Colombia, Ann Patterson, has endorsed a proposal to grant Colombia's second-largest rebel group a demilitarized enclave, another one, a second one, a 5,000-member national liberation army, another Marxist group. Do you think that makes good sense militarily?

GEN. PACE: Sir, if I may give you an answer to that question in detail in closed session, I'd appreciate the opportunity to do that.

SEN. SESSIONS: Well, it doesn't make good sense to me if we -- and I hope that somehow we can reach a stage that we can help Colombia. They're a good nation and important for this hemisphere.

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SEN. MARY LANDRIEU (D-LA): Thank you.

General, thank you for your service and for your testimony this morning. And let me just follow up, because Senator Sessions and I have similar views about our operations and our focus on Latin America and Central America. Representing Alabama and Louisiana, it's, you know, neighbors right to our south, and so our attention is drawn quite naturally, if you will, to that particular area of the world. And his expertise in this area I've come to respect in terms of his prosecutorial skills.

And I happen to agree that our Plan Colombia has to be much more comprehensive. It's not just a war against drugs, but it's a war for democracy, to help strengthen those nations. And it's most certainly in our interest, the entire country, and particularly in the southern part of our nation, because of the close proximity of Colombia.

So let me just ask you to follow up, General Pace. If you could -- and I know that you're only responsible for one part of this plan, but could you just for the record state one or two constructive either criticisms or changes you would make based on what you've seen in the last year or two that we could maybe focus our attention on in terms of reaching the goals of Plan Colombia, anything that you could direct us -- and I know you've said some of that in your testimony already, but one or two things that you could suggest to us that we could do to perhaps reach the goals as outlined in Plan Colombia.

GEN. PACE: Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Senator, one of the problems about Plan Colombia is that there will be spillover. Just as when Peru and Bolivia in recent years were very aggressive in attacking their problem, as they were aggressive, the businessmen, who are interested in making money, moved from the point of resistance -- Peru and Bolivia -- into the point of least resistance -- Colombia -- and set up shop there. So as Colombia becomes aggressive in their implementation of their plan, the businessmen will look for another place to set up shop.

I think what we need to do collectively is to encourage the original nations, the bordering nations especially with Colombia, to discuss with each other how best to handle the overall impact so that we don't continually have things seeping over borders. And then once they have had a chance to come up with regional solutions to regional problems, then we can be their partner in assisting them to attain those goals together.

SEN. LANDRIEU: So a more regional approach --

GEN. PACE: Yes, ma'am.

SEN. LANDRIEU: -- which is, I think, the way we originally started with Plan Colombia. But perhaps as it went through the process it got somewhat watered down. So we should, in your opinion, focus on strengthening the regional aspects of that plan so that we would increase our chances of success.

GEN. PACE: Yes, ma'am. And as you know, last year there was about $180 million allocated inside the $1.3 billion that went to the region. About 110 million of that went to Bolivia, about 30 million was earmarked for Peru, and the rest went to about five or six other nations. But, as I said, I think now we're in a position, now that we have seen the beginning impacts of Plan Colombia, to have a much more robust dialogue with the other nations to determine how to have a better regional approach.

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SEN. BEN NELSON (D-NE): Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Senator Nelson.

We appreciate very much the three of you being here today. It's good to see you and have the opportunity to visit with you, and good to see General Pace, who accompanied us and so very ably hosted us on our trip recently to Colombia. And -- appreciate very much every courtesy there as well as the opportunity to learn more about what's happening in that part of the world.

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SEN. BILL NELSON: To General Pace, I just say that I thoroughly enjoyed your hospitality going to Colombia with a number of the members of this committee. I was struck; I had never thought of the sensitivity and appropriateness of the location of your headquarters, where so many of the foreign leaders happen to come in and out of Miami and, as a result, you get another crack at them in order to visit with them, in order to develop a personal relationship with them, to carry out your duties. Would you care to comment on that?

GEN. PACE: Thank you. That's exactly one of the great benefits of being in Miami, is that it is a hub for transportation. We're about 15 minutes from the airport, so I'm able to meet with the senior leadership of most of the countries who come through, who either come specifically for business in Miami because it's such a great Latin hub, or who continue to transit up to D.C.

But it works out extremely well from my perspective, sir.

And thank you for both you and Senator Nelson going, along with Senator Levin and Senator Reed, sir. Your time in theater have made a huge difference.
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SEN. LEVIN: I just have one additional question of General Pace. It relates to the SOUTHCOM's engagement program. I've been a supporter of our engagement program with foreign militaries, particularly those militaries -- particularly relative to activities on our part which would impart respect for human rights and the proper role of a military in a democratic society. So I was very supportive of our effort last year to close the U.S. Army School of the Americas but to reopen a different school with a different focus, which was to authorize the secretary of Defense to establish the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation. I'm wondering if you would describe for us the Southern Command's theater -- the Southern Command theater's engagement program, tell us how the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation fits into that.

GEN. PACE: Senator, thank you. One of the things, you know, that we are able to do is, through the support of the Congress, to provide training and education opportunities for almost 2,500 officers per year from the 32 -- excuse me, 31 of the 32 countries in my area of responsibility. They go to various schools, our war colleges, our commander staff level schools. They also go to the WHISC, where they are able to learn about planning, they are able to learn about logistics, et cetera.

And embedded in that training, especially at WHISC, are courses in human rights, in proper subordination of the military to civilian authority. And as you know, in all of our exercises throughout the region, of which we conduct about 17 per year, either bilateral or multilateral, we also take the opportunity through both demonstration and through scenario development of subordination of the military to civilian rule.

I have not had the opportunity, Senator, to visit WHISC, yet, so I don't have a complete layout in my mind of the curriculum that they have, but I do know that they do, in fact, address human rights and --

SEN. WARNER: Thank you very much, Senator.

Gentlemen, I want to cover some other subjects rather quickly so that the open record has reference to them.

Panama is of ever present concern to us, General Pace. We discussed that last night in our private meeting, and you gave me certain reassurances. There was concern at one time that Mainland China was trying to gain a stronger foothold of influence in that region. And also, the prospective operation of the Canal from a technical standpoint, and also the stability of the government down there, and any other aspect of that you wish to cover.

GEN. PACE: Sir, thank you. As you know, there is a Chinese company on each end of the Canal. They provide port services. They in no way interfere with or are part of the actual operation of the Canal. So that unless a ship requires on-load or off-load at either end of the Canal, they play no part at all in the day-to-day operation of the Canal.

The Canal itself, under the commission that's being run by the Panama government, is being run extremely efficiently. From an outsider's point of view, they have run that extremely well, and their plans to increase capacity in the future look very well laid out.

As they will tell you, and as I have said to you yesterday, sir, the greatest threat to the operation of the Canal right now is the environmental impact on the watershed; that as development takes place, that silt and runoff --

SEN. WARNER: You're talking about land development, which removes the natural growth, and that results in a water runoff that impairs the operation of the Canal, because I think it takes -- what did you say, 500 million gallons of water to --

GEN. PACE: It takes 55 million gallons of water per ship per transit. There's 40 ships per day, give or take. So you've got a huge amount of fresh water being used every day that comes from those watersheds. And the Canal Commission, rightfully so, is concerned that as that development of the -- what is currently vacant land, that the silting and the runoff will impact the ability of the country to collect the water it needs to run the Canal.

SEN. WARNER: Now, the government and its stability and your relationships with that government.

GEN. PACE: Sir, we have excellent relationships with the government through the U.S. ambassador, now the charge. Minister of Security, Contaro (sp), has -- he's very friendly toward the United States. He has made possible such opportunities for us as assisting them in putting together a national command and control location, which they are building in the former Howard Air Force Base.

So, as far as today's environment inside of the ministries with whom I do business, it is very friendly, sir, and looking to the future.

SEN. WARNER: All right.

Now, the forward operating locations for our air elements in the counternarcotics operations, is that proceeding at a satisfactory rate --

GEN. PACE: Sir, it is --

SEN. WARNER: -- those airfields?

GEN. PACE: For the most part it is, sir. We're on track, as you know, at Manta in Ecuador. We will close that facility in about a week. And the major part of the $60 million worth of upgrade to that facility will take place over the next six months. So that is on track.

SEN. WARNER: Now, last night you spoke about your own professional judgment with regard to the timeline of the ability of Colombia to come to grips with this very serious problem. And there were two aspects of it that impressed me, and that is your professional views as to the length of that timeline. In my recollections, you said, "about a decade," and we're barely into it at this time. And secondly, the impact on the adjacent countries and how the United States will be considering, independent Plan Colombia, financial packages to help them stem any flowing into their nations of the current operations in Colombia.

GEN. PACE: Senator, my estimate, based on my discussions with the Colombian leadership, is that for the Colombian military to be large enough and well enough educated -- trained will take about three to five years for them, in conjunction with the Colombian police, to provide security, inside of which then the other nine elements of Plan Colombia can take root, in my estimate -- again, talking to government leaders -- is that Plan Colombia itself, overall, would take about 10 years to show the benefits of rebuilding the fabric of that democracy that has been destroyed by the drug traffickers.

With regard to the spillover, and therefore the impact on the neighboring countries, yes, sir, a regional solutions to the regional problem, properly supported by the U.S. government, I think, is a requirement.

SEN. WARNER: And you might enumerate those countries presently under consideration for that assistance.

GEN. PACE: Sir, my recommendation would be primarily those that border Colombia, which include Panama, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Brazil, Venezuela if in fact we're able to have accommodation -- satisfactory accommodation with that particular government. We should not, however, completely overlook places like Paraguay, Uruguay, and other nations through which drugs transit to get to the sea; to get to Europe.

SEN. WARNER: Part of our training involves the use of the helicopters which we're going to supply. We're always concerned, and we saw the concerns manifested in the Kosovo operation, of hand-held small weapons that can interdict airborne platforms such as the helicopter. How serious is that threat? Do we have any indication that the insurgents will be trying to acquire, on the open market and the world, such weapons, and how are they training to deal with that situation?

GEN. PACE: Sir, we take that threat very seriously. We presume that an entity that possesses hundreds of millions of dollars in illegal profits every year has the capacity to go on the open market and buy shoulder-held service-to-air missiles. We have no intelligence to confirm that yet we train to that probability. And the configuration of the helicopters at the State Department is buying -- took into consideration the likelihood that they would operate in a -- same environment.

SEN. WARNER: So they have the state of the art equipment for defensive measures?

GEN. PACE: Sir, they do.

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SEN. LEVIN: And I had one question, General Pace, on the unmanned aerial vehicles that are being used in Colombia by Department of State contractors. In our report, the four of us that went there, who I have referred to before, indicated that the low cost and the low-risk technology that's reflected in those UAVs should be assessed for expanded use, for the detection of drug labs and other important missions such as border patrol, and that Colombia offers an excellent area for such an assessment. Could you tell us very briefly, in your view, whether those UAVs have performed a useful function down there?

GEN. PACE: Sir, they performed a very useful function. We were delighted. As you know, Senator, they were a test bed. They were fed to us as an opportunity. As it happened, during the time they were there, we had some things going on in the region I can talk more about in closed session, to which they were very, very useful. So from my vantage point, not only for my responsibilities today, but also as a military person who might need to employ theme elsewhere in the world, they're very, very useful.

SEN. LEVIN: Would you like to see them continue there?

GEN. PACE: I would, yes, sir.